Glen Campbell
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Mona N. posted a link
Parrot massages cat's head
Play
6 hours ago - via Bookmarklet - Link
The parrot's expressions OMG LOL - Mona N.
omg, Mona....hahahaha - Anna Haro
I can't stop watching it. The parrot's face = PRICELESS. - Mona N. via IM
That was awesome! I had to go watch their other videos... - Alan
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Shevonne Polastre posted a link
Spicy Southern-Fried Chicken
7 hours ago - via Bookmarklet - Link
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG! WANT! - Glen Campbell
Oh that looks tasty. - Mathew A. Koeneker
You can tell what Im thinking about - Shevonne Polastre
man, i love chicken! - Cee Bee
WANT - Threepwood
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Pete Delucchi posted a message
“Note to self: quit buying garbage products from Apple.”
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August 30 at 9:45 am - Link
Serious question (just because I find the love of all things Apple fascinating): 'garbage products' == 'products from Apple' or 'garbage products' == 'the subset of Apple products which I will no longer buy'? - Joanmarie
The garbage products I will no longer buy from Apple include ones in which I am forced to stand in line over an hour to purchase, have battery lives so short you will be required to purchase additional power chargers for home, office, car, boat, etc, and that after 2 weeks of using them (and honestly, really enjoying it so far except the hideously long backup times) demand factory restores. Those garbage Apple products. - Pete Delucchi
I said this? I'm a complete iPhone zombie now. Love the thing. Go figure. - Pete Delucchi
I've never had any problems with an Apple product that I bought. Now that is only two, an 30GB iPod Video (had since spring 2006) and the Macbook Pro I just bought. - Mathew Ballard
Assimilated. ;-) - Chris Baskind
It's garbage because it can recover from an error?? Not sure I understand. I have friends whose Palm Treo's have crashed and it took days to rebuild. - Glen Campbell
YouTube
Amanda H. favorited a video on YouTube
Kelly Clarkson joins Metal Skool w/ her friend Jack Daniels
Play
Tuesday at 10:08 pm - Link
That was kinda hot... - J. Abdul-Qahhar
Ok, that rocked. Looks like fun. - Glen Campbell
Google Reader
todd shared an item on Google Reader
8 hours ago - Link
"This week's British Medical Journal has a wonderful social network study that examined how happiness moved through social networks. It found that even when friends of friends become happy, the effect can ripple through and boost your own contentment." - todd
This puts a lot more pressure on FF users. You are actually a source of happiness in the world. I promise to do my best. - todd
Well. There you are then. - Glen Campbell
I am a happy chappy mostly - Ian May
"The happiness of an individual is associated with the happiness of people up to three degrees removed in the social network. Happiness, in other words, is not merely a function of individual experience or individual choice but is also a property of groups of people." - todd
happiness is contagious, research finds .. a tweet from nicefishfilms today .. http://www.latimes.com/news/sc... - Gregory Lent
I wonder if there is a flip-side to this ... pissy, cranky, depressed, etc. will also ripple through the socnets - Nadine Schaeffer
My guess would negative energy ripples as well. Otherwise I think happiness would be more common :-) - todd
nadine, of course, hatred is contagious too ... there is a thing called collective consciousness, or group mind, we cannot describe the mechanics yet, but it is a hugely powerful thing .. economies rise and fall on it, ideas, countries, progress, on and on .. - Gregory Lent
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Glen Campbell posted a link
What Your Computer Does While You Wait : Gustavo Duarte
9 hours ago - via Bookmarklet - Link
"Most simple instructions on the Core 2 take one clock cycle to execute, hence a third of a nanosecond at 3.0Ghz. For reference, light only travels ~4 inches (10 cm) in the time taken by a clock cycle." - Glen Campbell via Bookmarklet
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The Bohemian Penguin posted a message
“I have a resumé to print from Pages and none of the printers I have access to are Leopard compatible. I could just ditch all my fancy formatting and send the .doc file to my PC, but... but all my fancy formatting! :(”
9 hours ago - Link
:( It just wouldn't be the same without the fancy. - Yolanda
Print to PDF and then print it from another computer - Glen Campbell
I second Glen - Shevonne Polastre
What Glen said. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
Thank you! I feel so brain dead tonight. - The Bohemian Penguin
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The Apple Room: Snakeyes11 posted a message
“looking at windows and mac twitter client it seems like mac's have better apps to twitter then windows does”
9 hours ago - via IM - Link
a lot of mac twitter clients are adobe AIR apps. that means they're cross-platform. - tiffany
I like Twitterific because it just sits up their in the menu bar and I never have to worry about starting it or accidentally quitting. - Glen Campbell
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Derrick posted a link
Sarah Palin Calendar 2009 ... Judy Patrick Photography
Sarah Palin Calendar 2009 ... Judy Patrick Photography
13 hours ago - via Bookmarklet - Link
Sarah Palin 2009 Wall Calendar includes photos from Campaign trail, governorship, and family. This high quality 13 month wall calendar features: * Over 50 photographs of Gov Sarah Palin and her family * Never before seen photos * 13 pages of high quality gloss paper * Closed dimensions: 9"x12" * Pre-drilled hole for hanging * Cellophane wrapped * Produced and printed in the USA - Derrick via Bookmarklet
No thanks. - Trish R
Oh hell no. - Anika Malone
Oooh.. this and dart board for Xmas would be a great gift! - Chris W
Perfect stocking stuffer, or Secret Santa gifts! - Derrick
White Elephant gift!!! GREAT Idea! - Chris W
If I gave that to anyone around where I live, they would treasure it and think it was a serious gift. - Trish R
lookit all you haters... i obviously missed the election wars - Trish Haley
LOL - Anna Haro
She should just walk around with a rifle like that all the time, it's sure to bump her ratings. - Jason Wehmhoener
"Pre-drilled hole for hanging"... why does that point make me laugh? - Johnny Worthington
Put it on a dart board and I'd buy one. - Cecily
WANT!!! wait... is that Tina Fey? - AJ Batac
+5 cecily - tiffany
Waste of paper much? - Amanda H.
Oh, Per.........leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze - Ian May
I sense a dartboard target... - anna
Pre-drilled hole for hanging - for using a dart board? - Ian May
Do NOT want - BeeLing
@Ian ...don't you mean: "pre-drilled-baby-drilled"... .LOLz - .LAG
Bwah! Totally getting this for this year's White Elephant party. - Ayşe E.
Where's the moose? - Adriana
Well, I was looking for new covers for my dartboard. - Steven Perez
Is there a turkey in November? - Glen Campbell
Glen: A very dead turkey. - Nicholas Kreidberg
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AJ Batac posted a message
“Do you still use www (on your domains)?”
10 hours ago - Link
sadly, i make sites with domains for clients, but after ~12 years on the net, I STILL have not bought my own domain! it's ridiculous! - Mohomed=genieyclo
No. Not at all. - Chris Baskind
Do you mean when setting up a domain or when typing a URL in the address bar? I try to set it up so either will work because so many people still don't know that www.whatever.com doesn't necessarily go to whatever.com. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
friendfeed doesn't use it anymore - AJ Batac
I know... It just doesn't look right to me :( - Johnny Worthington
Both. - Ian May
@ajbatac I try not to use WWW anymore. - Czar
All of my sites are no-www Class B: http://no-www.org/faq.php?q=cl... - donato
Nope, I redirect www to no-www. - Andrew Trinh
LOL, nice Andrew. :P I'm not there... yet. Wait, you mean you make www.domain.com redirect to domain.com... I must be tired. I originally read that as you redirect www. to no-www.org. Hahaha. :) - donato
Nay. - Mona N.
Where possible, I try to make www and non-www go to the same place. However, some of my domains have non-www subdomains. - Morton Fox
If you're targeting an innovator, early adopter or even early majority crowd, then non www might be best, but you'll want www for any site targeting late majority and laggards. Also, pick one and stick with it - consistency is the key IMO. - AJ Kohn
mohomed=genieyclo started on the net at three years of age - Gregory Lent
I generally support both. Seems like putting the work on me takes it off the clients, which is always a win. - matthew john ernisse
When possible, I try to redirect www to non-www. But for some reason Google App Engine doesn't support naked domains anymore, so I'm forced to redirect the naked domain to www. Lame. - Guillermo Esteves
I don't mean to be all 'GET OFF MY LAWN' but what happened to the good old days where you had to type in 'www'... www.here.com = 'where'.'who'.'type'... I'm gonna grab some pudding - Johnny Worthington
I don't - rampantheart
no i usually just type the address without the www - (jeff)isageek
now i have to research what the difference is .. - Gregory Lent
No, and I wish it would go away. I make sure my sites redirect to cut it out. I wonder how much time is wasted by so many people typing and saying those three useless letters. - Nathan Howell
not in most cases... most will do it anyway in browsers for you.. so just typing robsellen.com for example http:// gets added anyway, on some sites, I have had to put www. too. rare tho now. :o) - Rob Sellen
Gregory, www.whatever.com is just another subdomain like blog.whatever.com, so in theory it can point to a separate site than whatever.com - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
I make www redirect to the site that doesn't have www at the beginning. You can do it in your apache config. - Jason Huebel
God, I must be insane, I have mine redirecting the other way - Johnny Worthington
Johnny, that's what yahoo, facebook and google do too ;) - AJ Batac
We're not using it at work that much these days. However, my users, God bless them, will almost invariably start typing "www.," if I tell them to go to worksite.whateverourdomainis.edu. - MiɳiMagɘ (AlwaysMiniMage)
Sometimes. One good reason to use www prefix is to prevent cookies set on main website domain (foo.com) from affecting subdomains (blog.foo.com or testing.foo.com). Been there, done that. - andrei_c
You should keep what ever Google has listed for your site. As Tina mentions, they are considered two different addresses. And who actually types the www? I just type sitename in address bar and hit cmd(or ctrl)+enter. - Andrew Smith
Andrew, you can use Google Webmaster Tools to tell them to index it with or without the www. - Guillermo Esteves
For one of them I do. - Mathew Ballard
I'll clarify. I recently reverted to using www. as a domain prefix because I can use a CNAME to reference a different host. With the raw domain name, I have to hard-code the IP address; if I have to move a domain to a different server, I just change the CNAME and don't have to keep track of all the IP addresses. I'm not sure if it's worth it however. One thing for sure, I *never* allow both the raw domain and the www.+ prefix; that's bad for SEO, for cookie-handling, and it doesn't work well with Wordpress. - Glen Campbell
I do for one, but not the others. - xero
sheesh, i am so out of it, whatever glen said, i have no idea what it means - Gregory Lent
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Stupid Blogger (aka Tina) posted a message
“I gotta say, "Charlie Wilson's War" has to be Robert Scoble's best work...”
13 hours ago - Link
LOL - Chris W
Wait, you mean.... OMG, THAT'S NOT HIM? - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
I preferred evil Scoble in Mission Impossible 3 - Mark Bean
Personally, I loved him in Boogie Nights. Especialy when he was trying to get into Dirk Diggler's pants. - Mark Wilson
I enjoyed his performance in 'Along Came Polly'. "Let it rain!" (while shooting a basketball that clanks off the rim) - Mike Doeff
Awww... Scoble and Forrest and a hooker just helped save Afghanistan! - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)
Early career geek cred in Twister tho'. An under-rated performance. - Threepwood
good movie. good way to spend a couple of hours. - Morgan Haley
MAGNOLIA - Josh Haley
josh: hellz yes - Morgan Haley
Capote! - Logical Extremes
I was a big fan of his work in Empire Falls. Miniseries on HBO. Very good. - Aaron Krug
OMG wish there was a love link instead....almost spit out my beer which would have been very bad! - Joel Atetoomuch Martinez
I think Scoble was at his best in 'So I Married an Axe Murderer.' His later films were all derivative. - Ladybug Heather
and he tore it up as the widower-gasoline-huffer in Love Liza : http://piurl.com/sCC - Carlos Ayala
lol you guys are nuts - Monique
What about my nuts? - Mark Wilson
Magically delicious? Oh, that's your lucky charms. Sorry. I'm constantly confusing those. - Ladybug Heather
this is such a funny thread. I'm never going to be able to look at that actor again. Thanks guys. - anna
wow... brilliant connection @tina: scoble and p.s. hoffman -- separated at birf. .LOLz - .LAG
Empire falls, great mini series - Toby Graham
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RAPatton posted a link
Pg-08-drink-2-jasso-_95334a[1].jpg
Pg-08-drink-3-jasso_95333a[1].jpg
Show all
12 hours ago - Link
"Its peaty flavour and pipe-and-slippers image put many people off single malt whisky before they've taken a sip. But train your tastebuds and you could soon learn to love it." - RAPatton
"Single malt whiskies have always held a treasured place in my heart. Ever since illicitly cracking open my father's musty wooden drinks cabinet, at an age when I shouldn't have been drinking anything stronger than a weak shandy, to decanter some of his prized Scotch, I've been fascinated by their smoky aromas and fierce taste. As an adult, my first experience of single malts came at university, when some friends and I acquired a bottle of Laphroaig, one of the peatiest and strongest Scotch whiskies." - RAPatton
I doubt I could learn to love whisky frankly. - Nation Hahn
Laphroaig FTW - Glen Campbell
"When nosing a single malt, make sure not to dive in too far because you will just get a hit from the alcohol rather than the whisky's delicate aromas. Spinning the glass will help release its aroma." While good advice, sniffing it with your nose will still deaden your senses due to the alcohol. You need to hold your nose up to the glass, and breathe in through your mouth, not your nose. You'll get the scent and you won't deaden your schnoz. Also, Bourbon4Life. - Mark Trapp
No way, Jose. Taste like cold medicine. But I do love hearing whisky drinkers talk about whisky. They make it sound so sexy. - Anika Malone
Now, I am lusting for some, and stupid backward South Carolina's liquor stores close at 7pm and it's almost 8.... - Ian May
wow..those bottles are just so beautiful :) I'm thirsty now..oh..making irish coffee for the walk tonight... - Anna Lynn M.
+1 @anika... i'll stick to being a tequila and craft beer snob. ftw! - .LAG
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Sarah Perez posted a message
“*Like* if you like the new Google Reader better”
2008-12-04_1736.png
14 hours ago - Link
I liked both because the new design is much sleeker and refined than the old one. - Mattie Kenny
I must say I am liking the new look. - (jeff)isageek
I can't decide - Pinksy
Clean, simple, the Google trademarks. (It's also looking a lot like Zoho) - Gary Burge
I think I prefer the new look, seems cleaner. - Robert Nelson
Needs a few Greasemonkey tweaks but overall it's better. - richrecruiter
looks cleaner but less usable to quickly scan things, due to the far lower contrast (no more blue highlight and menu background). Everything blends together on my screen. Will get used to it, i guess. The typography does not look harmonious, they ought to tweak font sizes and spacing a bit. - Joelle Nebbe
too much white! I would have loved to see it go in a different direction. - vijay
i got confused. i meant to like this one. looks cleaner for sure. i LOVE helvetireader script though. it kills - Cee Bee
+1 for Helvetireader! Lots of space and clean to the max. - vijay
I haven't seen the new gReader.. but you know what still looks gorgeous? Feedly. ;) - Phil Glockner
I don't like it yet. It feels sharp and poorly spaced. But I'll get used to it. - Glen Turpin
I like it. If you were new to reader this would be an easier interface to use, IMO. - Clay Newton
Me like, very sleek. - Kol Tregaskes
pretty much the only reason i use google reader instead of another web service is that it used to be fast (not anymore) and the social feed websites integrate with it. - Joelle Nebbe
It's too early to tell, Sarah. It does look -- *brighter* - Jorge Escobar
I like it, just hope a redesign means that they bring in themes. - Zach Chisholm
Any idea how to decollapse the navigation pane back again? I don't say a way to undo the evil that I did. - todd
I was expecting something drastic so I'm a little disappointed. Seems like more of the same with a little cleanup. Nothing offensive and certainly no major changes that make it bad. - Kenton
I'm inclined to say that the new Google Reader is much superior to the old GR. - Jamelle
Love the feature upgrades, style is a little stark for me. - Kamath ॐ
Disagree. I was so used to the previous version. But that's because I live there. - Louis Gray
I actually didn't like it when I signed in after getting home. Perhaps I was far too used to the previous look? It's practically always open in another tab. But I'm getting used to it, and it's not too bad.. - deepikaur
I like it, but I want to hide the "Friends shared items" from the sidebar. That's the one feature I don't use. - Larry Hudson
Like, but I also want to see which blogs you put in the B, C, and D-list, Sarah. :) - Matt Cutts
Looks sweet, but appears to show less articles on the screen at once. - Mike Reynolds
like the new google reader and i like sarah too - Zee.
Haven't seen it yet, as I use Feedly. - Grant Bierman
I like that I can now find the "Add Subscription" button without scouring the left-hand pane for 5 minutes - Craig Eddy
Still using Google Reader with http://helvetireader - Mark Bean
schweeet! ♥ it! - AJ Batac
@Mark - very cool link. Thanks! - Phil Glockner
no like. I'm a change resistant old man - Threepwood
It's seems much snappier! - Pras Sarkar
Works for me. An improvement. - Sean McBride
I think I can definitely get used to it. - Deborah Fitchett
Oh I remember Google Reader. That thing I gave up around 7 months ago or so when FriendFeed came on the scene. - Thomas Hawk
me like! :) - matthew hunt
Some things are better. Two things I don't like is that the font size in the feed panel on the left seems to have doubled, and sometimes keyboard shortcuts don't work. - Tanath
liek it, but it looks weird with Helvetireader now - and that was soooo nice... well, hope for a Helvetireader and Better GReader greasemonkey updates now. - Peter Efland
Twitter
Chris W posted a message on Twitter
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Derrick posted a link
Chili Cheese Fries on Flickr
14 hours ago - via Bookmarklet - Link
I'm hungry. - Derrick via Bookmarklet
WANT....so bad. But I'll some carrots instead. *sniff* - Anika Malone
ew - anna
Dude! Your Evil! Shit I need to go make some now. Crap. Crinkle frys too.. - Chris W
Chris is is the crinkle fries that seal it, huh? - Anika Malone
I'll probably end up eating light for dinner...soup and maybe half a sandwich, but a guy can dream, right? Unless you're anna. ;) - Derrick
Oh good lordy....My heart just stopped..... - Katie
It's my mission to bring fries to the FF forefront a la bacon and LOLcats. Fries are a true winner. - Derrick
instant heart attack - Shey
Anika, crunchy crinkle fries FOR THE WIN! Notice I wrote it out.. Abbreviation didn't cut it. - Chris W
if you're gonna die, die with your chili fries on! - Morgan Haley
I just had animal-style fries for dinner. I'm so there with you. Fries FTW. - Amanda H.
Oh that looks good! It also looks fattening. Which is precisely why it looks so appealing! - Adriana
FriendFeed
Josh Haley posted a message
“Last Chance for Pro/Con discussion”
iphone.jpg
16 hours ago - Link
This weekend is the one that we will go get iPhones and join the hip masses. If there is any reason this technology and Josh/Trish should NOT be joined together, speak now or forever hold your peace. - Josh Haley
DO IT DO IT DO IT - Rochelle
become one of us.... - Glen Campbell
Join our cult. - Sparky
WalMart is supposed to have it for 99 bucks - Outsanity
?? for reals?? I don't see it on the website [citation needed] - Josh Haley
1) it's only 4GB and 2) it's still a rumor according to http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/... - Josh Haley
I don't have the iPhone but I enjoy the iPod touch. I don't like depending on a really bad battery in my cell phone that's why I went with the touch. Also I can't have anything small, I need lots of storage space, I couldn't find a iPhone with 32gb of space. My touch is a 32GB, but honestly I really want a iPhone or touch with 80 or 120GB. - Colide81 (James)
the only thing i would offer is that apple is the devil and too controlling. but their products and accessories are sexier than jessica alba in a thong. so it's your call (pun intended). my boss has an iphone and it's pretty smooth, but then again, he's in league with satan from what I have seen. happy shopping lemming boy - Morgan Haley
Con: If you're on the go a lot and frequently not near somewhere you can charge it, like the car, home, or office, the battery will die. Otherwise, enjoy! I'm using mine now, btw. - Pete Delucchi
Yep Pete just said my point better then me. If they put a better battery in then I'd buy it in heart beat, but ofcourse there's still the issue of storage size. - Colide81 (James)
how much time are we talking about Pete? (battery) - Josh Haley
I've heard mixed things on the battery. I've never had an issue with mine at all. Of course, I'm not doing hardcore hours-long GPS tracking or non-stop talking or anything. Just regular use. - Rochelle
DAMMIT HALEYS... Get thee iPhones post haste! - Johnny Worthington
LOL I'm hard core. I can make my touch last for about 4 hours when I'm on the net and listening to something at the same time. If I watch a video I turn the wifi off to extend battery life. - Colide81 (James)
the battery lasts 45 minutes. then it dies. then you have to fly to china to get a new unit. every time. consider this before buying. oh, and your kids will get ukus if you buy one. for eels. - Morgan Haley
Josh have you thought how you plan to use it? For me the touch was better cause of the storge, and I knew I didn't need the 3G with me so bad that I had to get a iPhone. - Colide81 (James)
Of for Pete's sake, just go get it! - Jim Jannotti
If you use it all day long like it's a laptop, it only lasts a few hours. For normal phone use, a day or so. If you don't touch it, maybe you could go a few days, but why bother then? - Pete Delucchi
DO EET! - Lindsey
Also no cut and paste on either the touch or iPhone. Apple may add it in the future but it's not at the top of the list. Where as my blackberry has cut/copy & paste. - Colide81 (James)
But if I had to choose based on design and ease of use between my blackberry and a iPhone I'd choose the iPhone despite no copy and paste. - Colide81 (James)
Well I have to go my iPod touch is nagging me that I am running out of battery life. Though I was listening to a podcast and played a game so that helped to drain the battery - Colide81 (James)
I sold my soul recently too and bought an iphone.. I keep running the battery dry every day :S Must stop touching shiney shiney.. - alphaxion
Jim, you have no idea!! I am dying to. - Josh Haley
Josh DON'T DO IT! ...........................There someone had to say it. - Chris W
josh, i'll give you a free bread maker if you DONT do it - Morgan Haley
Wait, Chris, this is all your doing in the first place! :p - Josh Haley
Morgan, SHUT IT! - Josh Haley
no copy and paste???? That's not good, James, that's just not good. - Josh Haley
No video capabilities either, Josh. - Anika Malone
Lack of copy/paste sucks beach balls, and is it at all possible for me to highlight and type over large amounts of text? I had lots of reasons why Mini and iPhone should not be joined, but when the opportunity to have an iPhone without indentured servitude (bka an AT&T contract), it took me only weeks to cave. It's fun tech. - MiɳiMagɘ (AlwaysMiniMage)
There's the bottom line, MiniMage, it's fun tech. And so shall it be. Thanks all for responding. - Josh Haley
The most important thing is if you want it Josh then get it. For me I am picky I have things I want in it before I will get it, and Apple hasn't fulfilled my check list of things I want for me to get it. They are close, but still not there. - Colide81 (James)
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Marco (aureliusmaximus) posted a message
“Going to oversimplify a bit here but...”
16 hours ago - Link
...its is driving me NUTS that we keep making it sound like the automakers are looking for a handout - its a LOAN L-O-A-N that they must pay back - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
full disclosure - the company i work for does work for one of the automakers and has done work for the auto manufacturers alliance in the past - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
So they borrow the money today and declare BK on Tuesday? No thanks... - Mark VandenBerg
Well since we have such connections to the banks.. why don't we just give them a loan through the banks??? - Chris W
Thank you. And as much as I don't like this, they've been given loans before and have repaid them before they were due. People need to educate themselves and not buy into the media stupidity. - Anika Malone
here's the deal - i'm not thrilled about the whole situation either and the free marketer inside of me says - let them go through the pain, we know it will suck but it will be better on the other side - the rest of me says - you can't implement pure theory which is why we are not a pure capitalistic society with a completely unfettered free market - we recognize we must make trade offs between our values and economic expediency - in this case I think the situation warrants action - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
I just wish, with all this bailout crap going on, people would stop talking bad about marxism/socialism/whatever. Admit that pure capitalism doesn't work, that way we all know where we stand and things will make a lot more sense. - ♫ Rahsheen ™ ★
agree @anika - and they need to STOP saying we are bailing them out on the backs of our kids for goodness freaking sake - its a LOAN - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
i totally agree @rasheen - I am and will likely always be a HUGE advocate for making sure that we always keep as close to the capitalistic side of the spectrum because i truly believe that it provides the best outcomes on balance - that said we have never been a purely capitalistic society because we have always realized that there are some things that do need to be done by the gov - even adam smith believed that - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
and it's an L-O-A-N that they may not be able to pay back. should we still make it? - tiffany
@tiffany personally I think we should because the potential harms of inaction far outweigh the potential harms of giving the loans. Do I think that not giving them the loans, letting them fall into bankruptcy, hundreds of thousands possibly millions of US workers lose their jobs EVENTUALLY provide the best economic outcome? Yes. Do i think its a worthwhile trade off? No. - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Marco, people will still purchase a car whether or not GM/Ford/Chrysler exist. The other companies left will increase production due to an increase in demand. An increase in production involves increasing the workforce and increasing the amount of parts produced by vendors. Many of the jobs eliminated by one company will be offered by another. - Mark VandenBerg
If they loaned me $7 billion I could survive until 2012 and pay it back. Really. - Glen Campbell
The problem being of course is that it is not a loan -- not in any normal prudent sense of the word. Loans are provided to those with collateral -- it assumes that what you have as collateral is worth enough to cover the loan. Worth implies that someone will be being to pay that amount for the assets. Those conditions do no exist here. - Brian Sullivan
According to the Senate hearing today: The market capitalization of the Detroit 3 combined is around $6 Billion. They are asking for several multiples of that. Kinda like getting $1 Million for a house worth $200K. And people are okay with this? - Mark VandenBerg
@mark a very succinct explanation of the macro level shifts in production and employment that are likely to occur - if that's all there was to worry about I'd be all for letting them go without the loans but there are a ton of considerations at the micro level that concern me - over a period of many many years i have no doubt that things would happen just as you've said but its how many years and what kind of damage we cause during that time that leads me to support the loans - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
@brian how do you figure? i fully realize that the scale we are talking about is dramatically different but I can walk into my bank right now and get approved for a loan of several thousand dollar with nothing but the threat of harming my credit rating to serve as collateral - credit card are nothing more than mechanisms for providing access to rolling unsecured loans as well - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
@glenn done $7 billion it is - come by first thing monday and we'll draw up the paperwork - remember, you said by 2012 now - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Marco -- I seriously doubt that -- you are saying with no asset as collateral you bank will loan you $200,000 plus? -- can anybody else here do that? No bank I have ever heard of will do that. - Brian Sullivan
Yes, it's a loan. But, and this a a big but, IT'S A BAD LOAN. It's a loan to companies not making it, and not showing any signs of getting to a place where they can make it. The nation would be better served handing out the (most recently) 34 Billion dollars we are talking about in the form of vouchers for "Big 3" produced vehicles to tax payers, so that they get an in flux of cash and a lot of us get new, US produced cars. At least we'd be getting SOMETHING for our billions. - Brian Norwood
These people just last week flew in, supposedly "hat in hand", to ask for money in their Gulfstreams. Clearly we are dealing with people who don't get it, and haven't got it for a while. - Brian Norwood
lmao no that's why i said thousands vs hundreds of thousands - but to my knowledge they haven't come to a decision on whether or not these will simply be unsecured loans or whether they will require something in return for them so it may be a moot point - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Brian, that's not a bad idea, but it will still reduce competition, and reduce the pressure on American auto makers to increase quality and make the best product for the money. If they're practically guaranteed that $34B in revenue, which isn't going to foreign companies, they will have less incentive to try to compete with those foreign companies. - klecu
@mark according to this http://tinyurl.com/6zjcjd in august of this year GM and Ford alone were worth a combined $17 billion - still depressing given their sales revenues - with all of the recent problems they may very well be at a combined $6 billion - but again traditional lending practices have little bearing on the factors that make me reluctantly supportive - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
@brian - ok let me make sure I am understanding you -are you saying that the only reason (or even the dominant one) that US automakers have been forced to ask for these loans is because they have done nothing over the past several years to try and restructure themselves? - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Well I said hundreds of thousands (and even that is probably at least a couple of orders of magnitude off) to get back to scale of what is being asked here. The few thousand loan is a easy -- the bank has already pre-cleared you as having the assets to support such a loan The big 3 have a capitalization value of 6-10 billion, they have liabilities of 60+ billion. Not sure what the breakup/bankruptcy value is -- but nowhere near enough to cover the liabilities. This "loan" will have a near zero effect. - Brian Sullivan
it is a handout if it is a loan at conditions no other business can get. - Joelle Nebbe
The only way out from under the liabilities is bankruptcy. It is not like the loan will allow them to instantly become competitive again. Even if they start producing "better" cars tomorrow it will be years before they gain the confidence of buyers back. They will be back in six months for more .. and so on and so on. - Brian Sullivan
was just giving you crap on the hundreds of thousands thing - look i don't disagree with anything you are saying - on paper it might be horrible but there are a myriad of other problems that aren't being taken into account. Would you agree that - on paper - every government regulation or involvement of any kind in the marketplace comes at the expense of the optimum economic benefit that can be derived on paper? - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
@brian i have to agree with the auto companies on this one - you think sales are down now? just wait until one of them files for bankruptcy. Would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy? Knowing that at some point you may need to call in the warranty or replace a part specific to that car that was made by a company that is indicating they may cease to exist in the near future? - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
I am not totally sure what you are getting at -- I am not against government regulation. I am just saying that calling this handout a "loan" is a perversion meant to pull the wool over the public's eyes. - Brian Sullivan
I was responding to your last comment where you said that letting them lapse into bankruptcy would provide the best solution - was merely saying that our entire economic and governmental system is build on the search for policies that best balance the tension between our currently prevailing values and the optimal theoretical economic outcome - that's why its not solely about what makes the most sense economically - Marco (aureliusmaximus)
Okay, I had to rescue a friend from the freeway... @Marco The problem with most of the companies that are financially in trouble today is they focus only on the micro and not on the macro. In other words, lack of longterm planning, and not just automakers, but all of them. I would agree with the loans if, and it's a big if, the UAW agreed to the concessions they spoke of this morning and there was a wholesale dump of the current management. http://www.signonsandiego.com/... - Mark VandenBerg