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22 hours ago
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hashem, Robert Haas, Kol Tregaskes and ĎÚβĨŐÚŚ Dod liked this
""Nothing underscores the government's weakness and its capitulation to the settlers more than the continued existence of the illegal outposts," wrote Aluf Benn, a venerable diplomatic correspondent for the daily newspaper Haaretz.
One of the unspoken fears fueling that impotence, Benn wrote, is that Israeli forces in the West Bank are increasingly filled with settlers and their supporters. A serious push against the settlements or outposts could trigger a divisive loyalty test that would split both the army and society." - Sean McBride
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The "split" is a healthy thing. Just like in Algiers: in the end - only a small minority of the French people kept viewing Algiers as "Southern France" - and without public backing, they've collapsed. The "split" has already happened when settlers started attacking Israeli peace activists and even soldiers. They're no longer "Eastern Israelis". The real problem is that it's *government* policy to allow/fund settlement expansions in violation of agreements same regimes (even "leftist" ones) keep signing. - ĎÚβĨŐÚŚ Dod
The Israeli government, under both right and left regimes, has fully supported the settlements movement, which is driven by the most extreme religious ideologues in Israel. One might reasonably conclude, therefore, that the Israeli government really hasn't the slightest intention of working out a peace agreement, and has only been pretending to do so, using peace negotiations as a stalling and delaying tactic with the hope that new larger Mideast wars will finally derail the Mideast peace process forever. Meanwhile, the United States is being passively dragged along by this crazy train towards Armageddon, with nary a peep from most politicians. AIPAC has already loaded up Obama's White House with assets who will keep Obama in line. Rahm Emanuel will be his chief minder. - Sean McBride
"One might reasonably conclude, therefore, that the Israeli government really hasn't the slightest intention of working out a peace agreement..." As soon as the so-called 'right-of-return' ofPalestinian refugees is off the table, then all things are possible. As soon as the Khartoum Resolutions are repudiated http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20t... then all things are possible. Your bias, Sean, is that you refuse to acknowledge the Arab/Palestinian/Muslim role in perpetuating the conflict. Sad. - Al Pasternak
Al - that's not a fair statement. I've said several times that I don't believe that either side to this conflict is interested in compromising. They've made that clear by their words and deeds. I am predicting that this situation will end as a catastrophe, unless there is a major change in attitude on both sides. Why did Labor continue to build settlements when it knew that they would make it nearly impossible to reach a peace agreement? Labor said one thing, and did another. - Sean McBride
What's the best solution to this mess? Good old Americanism -- stop organizing states around ethnic and religious groups. That's the modern way. But few people living in the Mideast are interested in trans-tribal living arrangements, apparently. - Sean McBride
Al, it is not about "If .... gone/off the table then..." Don't forget that the major reason Israel was recognized in 1948 by the then new UN was to have this right of return for Palestinians. It would be a demographic catastrohpy if they let it happen now, i admit. IMO there is no "more" or "less" innocent sides. They have the roadmap and have to sit and try to have a two state solution. - Hayk
i think a single state for all is better ... - Gregory Lent
That's the current trend -- forget two states. One state based on democratic equality for all, regardless of ethnicity or religion. Minorities in this new state should enjoy the same rights as minorities in the United States and other Western democratic nations. - Sean McBride
makes sense in terms of water, roads, electiricity, labot allocation, eventual intermarriage! - Gregory Lent
The main obstacle: ethnic and religious militants on both sides, who profile out like Ku Klux Klanners in the United States. - Sean McBride
Sean:You never post stories about Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah and their complete refusal to negotiate or compromise, only Israel. You ascribe so much influence to a tiny minority of religious Zionists who are being arrested by the Israeli government but never about the Islamists who control the governments, weapons and media in Lebanon [Hezbollah] Gaza [Hamas] and the West Bank [Fatah] who clearly and without reservation call for the elimination of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic state of Palestine - Al Pasternak
"unless there is a major change in attitude on both sides" - Well, when Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah stop calling for the elimination of Israel that would be a big step. So would repudiating the Khartoum Resolutions http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20t... Did you read them? "No peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it" You pretend to care about both sides but only emphasize the problems "caused" by Israel. That's wrong. - Al Pasternak
Al - you're missing the key point here: Americans are not supplying Islamists with hundreds of billions of dollars of aid, and Islamists do not exert enormously powerful influence in American politics, in both major political parties and in the mainstream media. Also: the Israeli government and the Zionist establishment have provided support for religious extremists in Israel for decades now. The settlements are a mainstream, not a fringe problem in Israeli politics. Most Americans would like to extricate themselves from these endless and destructive religious and ethnic conflicts in the Mideast altogether. - Sean McBride
number 1 recipient of american aid ... why? - Gregory Lent
Following the Party line I see. Not a word of acknowledgment that Arab/Muslim countries that support of Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah etc. are doing the same thing. Only the evil Zionists are to blame. Want to read what the other side is saying in their own words? Take a look: http://www.memritv.org/content... No religious extremism here. Move along. move along. I repeat: You pretend to care about both sides but only emphasize the problems "caused" by Israel. That's wrong. - Al Pasternak
Hey Greg: American military aid to Israel '02-'04: $9,094,874,000. Total of American aid to other Middle East countries for the same period: $9,773,396,354. Israel get the most, but American interests make sure no one is left out. Why? Source: http://projects.publicintegrit... - Al Pasternak
The bottom line is that the occupation is illegal and the settlements are illegal... all of them not just the so-called outposts. Not to mention what the settlers do to Palestinians every day that's never reported... I've been to Hebron just this year and their behavior against the Palestinians is appalling... I'd be pretty enraged too if I had live through that - Shawn Duffy
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19 billion blown on the middle east .. not counting wars .. what a waste - Gregory Lent
"The bottom line is..." that Israel cannot not negotiate a just peace until all parties in the conflict and their proxies agree that Israel has a right to exist, with secure borders free from attack. Its like this: There is a man with a gun on the street and he wants to come into my house and kill me. First, I will invite him into my house, then I will ask him to put down his gun. Do you get it yet? - Al Pasternak
I'll tell you what... I invite you to come to Palestine with me this year and spend a few days in Hebron and see if you get it yet. - Shawn Duffy
Since we're obviously not going to change each other's minds, I thought I'd inject some comic relief: http://www.theonion.com/conten... - Shawn Duffy
Shawn D: Does Israel has a right to exist, with secure borders free from attack? It is a simple question. - Al Pasternak
Absolutely... within the borders granted them by the international community. Look, I'm not defending groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. They have a vested interest in continued conflict. And every time they blow up a pizzeria, they might as well have done it in Ramallah or Nablus because it hurts their cause much more than it hurts Israel. - Shawn Duffy
But to insist on all violence ending is ridiculous and Israel is fully aware. They refuse to give the PA weapons then insist they catch "the terrorists". Israel even consistently bombs PA police stations after a Palestinian attack. I'd even support a formal defense treaty with the US if Israel would withdraw from all illegal territory and remove settlements. But that has to happen otherwise peace will never come. - Shawn Duffy
no, israel is an imposition on palestine .. created by other countries, and has only the right to coexist .. that is all, and should be all it needs, except for its insufferable ego - Gregory Lent
Peace will never come until the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims give up their obsession with possessing the entire land base where Israel is now and establishing the [Islamic] State of Palestine in its place. Israeli withdrawl from Lebanon did not stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel. Withdrawl from Gaza did not stop Hamas from attacking Israel. BTW, Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims consider *all* of Israel occupied territory. Did you not know this? - Al Pasternak
no, from my pov i blame israel, israelis, and the jewish mindset which has thrived on victimization for generations, and acts to create what it fears .. it is the way the identity is maintained, sort of "we are oppressed, therefore we are" ... though i only know what i see in israelis who come to india, made me totally pro-palestinian, never knew anything before that, except the damn country name was in the newpaper every day of my entire life, a pissant little country - Gregory Lent
But you're essentially invalidating their legitimate claims by bringing up some of their illegitimate claims. That's like me saying just because the settlers believe in a Greater Israel and since that's not valid neither is the claim to the 1948 borders. Yes many of them are bitter about having been kicked off their land in '48, I would be too. But the overwhelming majority of Palestinians I know are willing to have peace along the original borders of Israel. - Shawn Duffy
and it *is* occupied territory, since the last century. before that, purely semitic, which is not a religious category - Gregory Lent
Anyway, we're not solving the conflict on Friendfeed... not enough room and I have to get to work. But, the invite still stands. I'll be returning to Palestine this year, perhaps Gaza, too, to work on some photo projects. You wanna see the whole story? Meet me in Jerusalem. - Shawn Duffy
