Igor The Troll

A tool. - Sean McBride

I wrote a post today on neoconservatives (its in my FriendFeed somewhere), but in short, I think they are trying to rehabilitate their image by claiming credit for various foreign policy success. I wouldn't pay too much attention to them, we'll have to wait and see what Obama actually does before passing judgment. - Jamelle

See Robert Dreyfuss's important article, just published: "Still Preparing to Attack Iran: The Neoconservatives in the Obama Era" http://www.truthout.org/120308... The neocon era is not remotely over. It is quite likely that they will succeed in expanding the Iraq War to Iran and Pakistan, which has long been a major objective of theirs. The Obama administration is dominated by the neoliberal wing of the neoconservative movement. Dreyfuss has all the details. - Sean McBride

iran attack would piss me off - Gregory Lent

Sean - I say this with all sincerity - I appreciate your ability and propensity for categorization and the ability for cleaner macro-level analysis it provides but I have absolutely no idea what "neoliberal wing of the neoconservative movement" means - If Iran developed a nuke and Rachael Maddow began advocating military intervention would she start the "Progressive neoconservative" wing? - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

An Iran attack would probably collapse the American economy much worse than it has already collapsed, in part as a result of the Iraq War -- but the neoconservatives don't care. - Sean McBride

From Alternet: http://www.alternet.org/audits... - V for Veselka

V - Robert Dreyfuss is one of the world's foremost experts on these topics. It's unfortunate that quite a few hardcore Obama supporters aren't familiar with all the facts in this article. If they were, they wouldn't be taken by surprise by coming events. - Sean McBride

marco, to me they are simply two words for the same thing (and probably some sort of deep ego/fear/personality disorder that any ideological extremism both springs from and acerbates) and these two camps basically converge in a world view that is as intense as it is blind .. this mindset seems increasingly present in american foreign policy decisions and world view .. an early sign of decline - Gregory Lent

Look there are two reason for war with Iran, not that I approve or condone it. One, Global economy, wars make jobs. Two, the Arab countries holding the world for ransom with Oil. If Oil prices are high the world economy suffers. If oil prices are low all the democratic governments in the middle east get toppled, and you will have a Muslim Extremist Fundamentalist controlling the world with Ballistic missiles and God forbid nuclear bombs. What is the solution? - Igor The Troll

And please do not tell me it is Israel. That is just plain Antisemitism. Hitler hated the Jews before there was the State of Israel. Muslim Extreme Fundamentalist hated Christian before the State of Israel. - Igor The Troll

@gregory and therein lies the rub - both you and sean are very adept at viewing things from a 30,000 ft level which lends to neat categorization, the identification of shared motivations and easy spotting of potential trends - these are all good things but I think that, unfortunately, they serve a more powerful function when used in hindsight - when used in the thick of things it leads to an apples and oranges debate of ideas - Dreyfuss was awesome in Down and Out in Beverly Hills by the way (kidding) - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

lol ... in the thick of this thing, something is up ... maturity, change, and world-wide vision are what got obama elected, hope he can live up to his own hype, given what he has surrounded himself with .. as for me, i think all of these dramas are the result of a huge wind blowing through creation, and nothing can be done about any of it ... collective consciousness is what it is - Gregory Lent

yes and no from my perspective - i may not agree with you or sean but i do believe that people like you play an important role as do the people you label neocons - it doesn't always work as it should but on balance i believe that the free and aggressive debate of ideas weeds out the weak arguments and elevates those with merit - i agree that human nature is the cause of many of these patterns but i don't believe for a second that you believe nothing can be done about it - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

Marco - are you able to engage in dialogue or debate with any of the facts and analysis in Robert Dreyfuss's latest article? The close ties between neoconservatives and neoliberals have long been known to political analysts -- they are two arms of the same lobby. The neoliberal wing of the Democratic Party enabled the neoconservative war against Iraq in the Republican Party. They are now coordinating their activities to expand the Iraq War to Iran and Pakistan. - Sean McBride

Marco - by the way, the neoconservatives labeled themselves neoconservatives -- that is their own label. Do a search on Amazon.com on the term, and you will discover a large collection of high-quality books dissecting the ideology, history, policies and plans of the neoconservatives. - Sean McBride

Marco: i must confess, I didn't know what "neoliberal" meant when a friend said it to me a while back. It made no sense. I thought it somehow had to do with genuine liberalism. She kept conflating it with neo conservatism. I kept saying "why don't you just call them conservatives or neo cons?" To which she said, "because they are neo liberal." After that, I did some homework (which exceeded the scope of this link btw) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N... - V for Veselka

Sean: I think if you were to do a rough survey of Friend Feeders (i.e., how many of you can define the difference between liberalism, neo liberalism and neo conservatism) you'd find that very few could even articulate a definition of neo liberalism. I'd argue that it's not so commonly known or understood beyond those who have formally studied social and political thought. - V for Veselka

Sean - here is all I am saying - i get the value that labels provide i just think that when you put as much emphasis on the justification of the use of those labels you do yourself and the larger debate a disservice. Look back at your original post - its core logical assertion is not: "we should be careful of foreign policy x, y and z for these reasons" - it is "Obama's appointments are bad because person x, y and z likes them" - u have completely shifted the focus of the debate from the actual arguments.. - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

...that concern you most and made it about something completely different. I'm all for talking about the need to prefer one approach over the other but when you force everything into such a macro-viewed narrative it makes it difficult - you say "they are now coordinating their activities to expand the iraq war to iran and pakistan" but, by itself, that statement has no meaning - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

labels are a substitute for values .. hard to talk about values, easy to use labels .. the underlying assumption with political criticism is indeed about values, that there is a better way to live than is currently being extolled ... all people feel this about their set of values .. labels save the day by being in the end not nearly as threatening as opposing values - Gregory Lent

its only hard to talk about values because we refuse to - values are derived from our experiences and what we believe about human nature and the world we live in - the problem we get into is that we refuse to consider or believe that someone who prioritizes a different set of values than we do does so because, like us, they want an outcome that will make everyone's life better - we don't understand their value matrix so instead of at least trying to truly understand their motivations we group them... - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

...label the group and then look for whatever patterns we can find within the labeled group to support our assumption that they have impure motives. You assume that neocons share a common dedication to the nefarious - some of them may I don't know - what i do know is that when you focus on assigning motivations based on the labels that have been derived it completely derails the debate - it is no longer about the best outcome but whether or not your assessment of their motivations is correct - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

i totally agree with you marco ... and am convinced that the way forward in almost all current conundrums, from economy to terrorism to politics is to fully engage in value-based dialogues ... but ego comes in, and people would rather suicide than give up their values, because self-definition is based on it ... we don't have the skills or the vocabulary yet to do this ... will take some years .. but has to be done ... me me me has no strategic value anymore - Gregory Lent

i definitely think we have the vocab and ability to do it now - the problem is - as we unfortunately saw on FF during the election - that we all want someone else to do it first - many of us may walk into a conversation prepared to listen with an open mind but as soon as someone breaches the line that separates honest debate centered around values and motivation-assigning generalized attacks we feel the need to respond in kind - only takes a few people who refuse to play that game to get the ball rolling - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

While you bitching like old hags, Noah will build a ship and we will fly away! LMAO - Igor The Troll

values, should they be based on belief? or should they be even more basic, such as brainwaves, a quiet mind being the answer to most problems? should we embrace concepts like spiral dynamics and design for the higher awarenesses? or let the soup continue to be stirred by the flow of collective consciousness? can we admit that differing concepts of being a person demand different systems of organization/government? or does everybody have to have a "democracy"? how about gender concepts, is there one right - Gregory Lent

Marco - I am very precise about assigning policy positions to neoconservatives and neoliberals -- I work empirically from the facts. Both the neocons and neolibs worked in tandem to engineer the Iraq War, and they are now agitating to expand that war to Iran. Do you disagree? Did you take the trouble to digest Dreyfuss's article fact by fact? The neocons especially are an open book about their relentless warmongering. - Sean McBride

Marco - Rachel Maddow hasn't been agitating for an Iran War -- that is exactly the point -- she is a progressive, not a neoliberal. For that matter, conservatives (including libertarians) and liberals (including progressives) share much more in common with one another than they do with neoconservatives and neoliberals. - Sean McBride

Regarding the war and economy issue: an Israeli or American attack on Iran would probably drive the price of gas to $10 or $15 a gallon, and hammer the final nail into the coffin of the American economy. And I don't know of any economists who believe that the projected expenditure of several trillions of dollars in the Iraq War has been good for the American economy; on the contrary: we are on the verge of a major depression. - Sean McBride

So praise for appointments = philosophical and ideological agreement? Are we that partisan now that you can't respect the other if you disagree with them? - mikepk

V - an intense discussion about neoconservatism and neoliberalism has been going on in policy circles for decades now. Try Googling both "neoconservatism" and "neoliberalism" separately and together for some background. Most Americans know nothing about the dialogue because the mainstream media have worked hard to keep the debate from the American public. For the most part, the mainstream media are owned and controlled by neoconservatives and neoliberals, and they seek to keep as low a profile as possible. - Sean McBride

mikepk - There is no conceivable way that neoconservatives would praise these appointments if they didn't believe that the appointments were compatible with their policy objectives. Their number one objective is to expand the Iraq War (which they engineered) to Iran and Pakistan. Did you take the trouble to read the Robert Dreyfuss article carefully? - Sean McBride

More from Robert Dreyfuss: "Last spring, Tony Lake and Susan Rice, for example, took part in a WINEP "2008 Presidential Task Force" study which resulted in a report entitled, "Strengthening the Partnership: How to Deepen U.S.-Israel Cooperation on the Iranian Nuclear Challenge." The Institute, part of the Washington-based Israel lobby, was founded in coordination with the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), and has been vigorously supporting a confrontation with Iran. The task force report, issued in June, was overseen by four WINEP heavyweights: Robert Satloff, WINEP's executive director, Patrick Clawson, its chief Iran analyst, David Makovsky, a senior fellow, and Dennis Ross, an adviser to Obama who is also a WINEP fellow." - Sean McBride

You know, I am beginning to realize that empirical political analysis conducted at the level of sophistication and detail of folks like Robert Dreyfuss is going over the heads of most Americans (including most Friendfeeders). They can't keep track of how all the pieces fit together to form influential political networks that fly under the radar of public consciousness. Too much information. - Sean McBride

i actually don't like the labels so much, i can see intention and motivation, and proceed in my understandings from there .. but they are necessary for great discourse, which i usually can only stand on the sidelines and watch/feel - Gregory Lent

When political activists consciously and deliberately associate themselves with particular ideologies, political groups and policy positions, then labels matter. Labels are how we keep track of who is pushing what policies and with what objectives and motives. Labels matter greatly when they are applied fairly and accurately. - Sean McBride

agree - Gregory Lent

Neoconservatives and neoliberals are two arms of one lobby. Where neocons and neolibs agree: AIPAC+, anti-Muslim militancy+, Clash of Civilizations+, global plutocracy+, Global War on Terror+, Iran War+, Iraq War+, Joseph Lieberman+, police state culture+, privatization+, pro-Israel militancy+, torture+, warrantless wiretaps+, WINEP+, World War IV+. - Sean McBride

can you extend that to economics/taxes/employment/education? - Gregory Lent

Gregory -- neocons and neolibs are overwhelming focused on foreign policy issues as defined by AIPAC, and are interested in domestic policy issues primarily insofar as they impact or support their foreign policy agenda. Note that Joseph Lieberman, a leading neoliberal, has been preoccupied with maintaining his position of authority over Homeland Security. - Sean McBride

Marco: does Dreyfuss have his facts in order here? "When it comes to Iran, however, it's far too early to dismiss the hawks. To be sure, they are now plying their trade from outside the corridors of power, but they have more friends inside the Obama camp than most people realize. Several top advisers to Obama - including Tony Lake, UN Ambassador-designate Susan Rice, Tom Daschle, and Dennis Ross, along with leading Democratic hawks like Richard Holbrooke, close to Vice-President-elect Joe Biden or Secretary of State-designate Hillary Clinton - have made common cause with war-minded think-tank hawks at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), and other hardline institutes." - Sean McBride

How to spot empirical researchers: a high frequency of proper names in their analysis (especially persons and organizations). The fewer the proper names, the weaker the analysis, usually. - Sean McBride

Sean - you're missing what I am trying to say - it may very well be that your passion and aim is to track macro-level movements of thought and expose what you believe to be dangers inherent to particular groups like "neocons" - no problem if that is the case but if that is so then you need to adjust the end goal of your arguments so that they are consistent with your focus - look back at your comment that begins with "Does Dreyfuss have his facts in order here?" - nothing in that comment provides any... - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

...ground for substantive debate over the best course of action as it pertains to Iran. that thrust of that entire comment can be boiled down to this: Obama has appointed a bunch of people who are hawks on Iran to key positions. I could grant the validity of that statement and we wouldn't be one step closer to discussing the harms and benefits of any one approach over another. - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

Marco - we seem to be communicating right past one another. Quite a few people who supported Obama because he opposed the Iraq War are concerned that his administration has been taken over by the ringleaders of that war from the neoliberal and anti-progressive wing of the Democratic Party. Now they are targeting Iran for attack. Dreyfuss in his usually brilliant way pulled together the facts on this issue. Do you have comments on the specific substance here, or on my point at the head of the thread that a large number of neoconservatives are pleased with Obama's appointments? - Sean McBride

Marco - if you want to present the case that going to war against Iran would be a good idea, then by all means go ahead. :) Seriously. What's the best case? Will it stand up to informed scrutiny? (Sorry to be so slow in figuring out what you were saying.) - Sean McBride

Sean - I am not going to pretend to know exactly what should be done at this point - i have a number of thoughts, specific to the Dreyfuss article and other wise but to avoid driving people insane with the kind of back and forth necessary to discuss the myriad of issues related to the issue i am going to create a private room - again, my larger point here has been that this kind of categorization is good for academic analysis but bad for substantive discussions over current problems in need of solutions - Marco (aureliusmaximus)

Sovietic Union of America? - Roldano De Persio

everything becomes its opposite .. the land of the free and the home of the brave will become the land of the monitored and the home of the fearful ... it is how life works - Gregory Lent

Sean, we may disagree on many things, but I do see Martial Law in America! - Igor The Troll

Now I realise what this is for: to police the poor. America will soon resemble Rio - with areas for the ultra rich and huge sprawling favellas of poverty. Obama didn't make this decision, Bush and Co did. REMEMBER that. And there are more of these guys because BUSH IS DOING THIS. - V for Veselka

We cannot blame everything on Bush and Co. The Extreme Right does not work without Extreme Left. One gives Life to the other! - Igor The Troll

V - that's a plausible scenario. The ultra-wealthy may be panicking over the prospect of a financial collapse and societal breakdown which could lead to conditions like those which provoked the French and Russian Revolutions. They may intend to use the U.S. military as their private army to keep the angry masses beaten down and supine, while they hide behind their barricaded palaces. Under those conditions, what they would have most to fear is a revolt from within the military itself. - Sean McBride

Igor - it is generally true historically that extremists on polar opposites of the political spectrum often merge in their affection for totalitarian police states. They view them as instruments for the destruction of their political opponents. - Sean McBride

I doubt it can be avoided due to Geopolitics. The best we can do is contain collateral damage! When the ship is sinking, you can only save a few! The rats in desperation jump overboard. I hope you getting the analogy! - Igor The Troll

Considering that America is breeding ground (or having chapters of originally English or German counterparts) for extremist movements, some of whom claim mantle of animal rights groups (ALF,ARM, HRS,HSA), environmental preservation (ELF), far right and white suprematists (WAR, KKK), United American Freedom Foundation, McVeigh-s, etc. this increased need to stem domestic violence is not surprising. .. - Hayk

hmmmmm....ok - Live4SoccerVacations

Enlightenment! LOL - Igor The Troll

Hmmm. I hope they're drastically different than the sex-ed classes i had in elementary school. Information, which is all i was given, isn't going to help much. For the education to stick, i think children need experience the consequences of pregnancy. How do you do that for a kindergartner? Maybe girls' sex-ed does. I've seen classes where they have the children care for a fake infant for a week (was that on a TV show?) but didn't for the boys sex-ed i took. The pure information never really stuck with me. - ·[▪_▪]·

agreed - Igor The Troll

I'M A BIT PEAVED. I uploaded this video to Seesmic and it didn't work. I am suspicious. - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Try again should not be a problem. Did you post it as a link or uploaded a file from your computer? - Igor The Troll

link... and it isn't just my youtube file. others as well... seems to be a universal problem. my bad - Ⓝ〄ⒶⒽ ⒹⒶⓋⒾⒹ ⓈⒾⓂ〄Ⓝ

Make some dumplings and toss em in. - Mattb4rd

mmmm. dumplings - Trish Haley

Alas, no flour in the house, which makes dumplings nigh on impossible. - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Mmmmm, dumplings! - Sally Church

remember when your mom would send you next door for a cup of sugar or the like? we don't do that anymore... if i lived next door to you, i would insist that you come borrow some flour to make dumplings. - Trish Haley

We need some rice. Maybe we could swap? - Josh Haley

Awwwww - see, and that's why I love Trish! (The drool pics, too. Totally have to see those. :-D ) I'll have to see if gmail will let me send you some flour as an attachment, Tina. Bisquick works pretty well in a pinch, too. - Ladybug Heather

Josh, I have three kinds of rice on hand. Once Heather confirms Gmail allows foodstuffs as attachments, we're good to go! - Stupid Blogger (aka Tina)

Feed me! I am a Hungry Troll. ;-) - Igor The Troll

thanks heather, but those pics are sealed... never gonna happen. you'll just have to use your imagination. - Trish Haley

It depends. Are you wearing pants? :D - Steven Perez via IM

OH NOES! - Josh Haley

hahaha smart cat - Igor The Troll

lol - Monique

Steven, now I wonder whether Josh "OH NOES!"ed at (a) the lolcat, (b) the thought of adopting me, or (c) the thought of me not wearing pants. :-D - Ladybug Heather

:-( @ the sound of crickets in response to my last one. Does Josh think I don't love him as much as I love his wife? Should I apologize for the "one hair" crack? *sniff, sniff* - Ladybug Heather

I thought I was the first post on this. Hadn't seen any other comments when I posted. - Josh Haley

(Josh - I was playing! But hey, so if your answer was (a), does that mean y'all would adopt me? I could cook those meals so Trish could play with a Logitech Harmony remote... :-D ) - Ladybug Heather

Sounds good. Does that make you our redheaded step-child then? ;) - Josh Haley

I don't think that would be anything new for me... :-D (Actually, my mom's a redhead. And claims to be only one year older than me, just like you.) - Ladybug Heather

adoption with meals? welcome to the family heather! not even mark offered to do that. maybe it's because he's canadian. yeah. - Trish Haley

HA HA HA HA HA HA Heather is Canadian too, yo! - Josh Haley

Um... no, I'm not! I'm in Virginia Beach. I'm just engaged to a Canadian. - Ladybug Heather

oh - Josh Haley

GO TO YOUR ROOM! - Josh Haley

No wonder Heather, I hear they have tremendous asses... - Johnny Worthington

*hides his ass* *wonders if Ladybug Heather still finds a reason to be engaged to this Canadian* - Scott from Canada

LOLz - Igor The Troll

حکیمه : اونلی منیره :دی - Hadiseh

هان؟ :) اين اونلي منيره ......... اوه تيتررو نديدم همين جوري مرامي لايك زدم :) مرسي حديثه :-* منم هميني كه توگفتي :) - monire

اوکی :( - HakimeH

قبلنا که اونلی من بودم که . آقا من قبول نیست . منم میخوام :))) - HakimeH

اونلی تو بودی؟ O_o آقا حکیمه منو اشتباهی گرفته :)))) تو چه مایه هایی میخوای؟ - Hadiseh

نخیرم . هیچم اشتباهی نگرفتم . خو اونوختا اونلی من بودم خو :دی / یادت رفته؟ :دی - HakimeH

نه تا اون موقع که من یادمه همیشه اونلی نیلو بود !!! :-?? - Hadiseh

:(((((( - HakimeH

جای منم میشه؟ - shahab

Nope، ظرفیت فقط یک نفر. - Black Droplet

مرسی که بقیه جواب درست رو می دن :D یه شخم طلبت بلک جان - Hadiseh

دارمت حدیثه! - Black Droplet

:)) مرسي حديثه - monire

حيف که کامنت ها طوري بود که من نتونستم چيزي بگم... :D دهنمو باز نکنين! بذارين خاموش بشينيم که اگه بگم بد ميشه :D - emin

love it! - Lindsey

ROTFLMAO!!!! I swear he's...doing that "thing" when you're a happy guy in that bottle. I would soo buy that and not use it! - Mohomed=genieyclo

Nice! - Mathew Ballard

Probably inspired by real life events. - todd

*My humps, my humps...* - Mohomed=genieyclo

kinda looks like the Cingular logo....'cept in 3D... - Live4SoccerVacations

...it does! - Mohomed=genieyclo

Wow...does kinda look like Cingular... - ♫ Rahsheen ™ ★

hahah I want it! - Leandro Ardissone

Sorry about all - world is not a good place for good guys. : / - Erhan Erdogan

Erhan, on the contrary, the world is a great place for us and everyone else as long as the ignorant minority of extremists are kept from allowing their actions to overshadow the positive actions of the rest of us. This has felt on going since 2001. - Adam Helweh

be proud of who you are, and let your good enlighten your people - Igor The Troll

I am friends with several people who are Muslim and they're good people who would always say that Islam is a religion of Peace. Knowing them and their morals and values is about the only thing that keeps me from being confused and angry... Because I know that those horrid actions by "Muslims" aren't really representative of the majority of Muslims in how they practice their faith... But I know also know a lot of people who haven't had my experience who think that all Muslims are terrorists. Those people are angry and afraid of Muslims because of things like Mumbai... it's going to take a lot of time for the perception of Islam to recover from things like this... - Lindsay Donaghe

I cannot say it better than Igor has. - Akiva Moskovitz

I am an atheist and believe religion is one of the greatest sources of evil in humanity's story, but I am also a happy to support anyone who is a person of faith, who lets their faith guide them toward peace, tolerance, and enlightenment. - John McCrea

Adam, Genieycol, hold your heads high. Extremism is an ideology, not a religion. Those who propound it are weak cowards with no comprehension of anything and deserve no attention. Please don't let such idiots have an impact on your esteem. We are all frustrated and tired of them but we must not cave in; it is their desire to see us broken - we must persevere. - Parth Awasthi

John, uh... - Akiva Moskovitz

@Igor great comment. @John it is situations like these that justify opinions like yours about religion and evil. It seems like a logically justified point of view based on world events. Although I do not agree it is in fact the case. @Parth agreed, it is just to tiring. More than some can understand. With 24 hours in the day, I'd rather spend it doing something good than defending my faith. Doing good can also be a way of defending your faith as well, but I would rather it be the norm. - Adam Helweh

Haven't extremists purporting to be from most all religions been guilty of some form of terrorism of some kind down thru history? - Ian May

Well said, Igor. - Chris Baskind

Adam, Respect. I believe you are already addressing it the best anyone can. I am sure your thoughts will impact those around and this is how it shall percolate the society. - Parth Awasthi

@Ian yes, but the average joe forgets anything past his nose and the current government has done a good job at exploiting this (IE: Iraq = Afghanistan). - Adam Helweh

Empathy bestowed during these times makes you one of us, thanks - Mahesh CR

I really don't care what color, creed, race, nationality, religion, gender, or sexuality a person is. If I don't like you, it's never for any of those reasons, and although I obviously fall out with people from time to time, as we all do, there are very few people in this world I actively dislike, and even then I seldom waste my energy thinking about them, preferring to direct it to more positive things. - Ian May

@Ian & Mahesh... I feel your open mindedness and understanding is a rare occurrence these days. Maybe I am wrong. I watch too much news. - Adam Helweh

I don't watch much news. I read a lot of news though. I feel that much TV news thrives on soundbites taken out of context. I prefer to select new items that interest me, and then try to read more in-depth. That way, you perhaps get less news, but you get to understand more of what you do get. If that makes sense. - Ian May

The times are such and can't help but feel that way. Guess it is up to the few sane minded to hold hope and a better way for posterity..can't let ourselves be dragged into mire. - Mahesh CR

I was almost Muslim. I have a great respect for the religion and it does bother me that it has been given such a bad reputation based purely on the acts of a few nutcases. I'm quite positive most religions have had outliers who have done very evil things as well. Unfortunately, this turned out to be a good marketing tool for some people to push certain agendas. - ♫ Rahsheen ™ ★

When I find folks that blame Islam, I point out that horrific acts have been committed in the name of Christianity. Very few religions have not had their evil extremists, IMHO. - MiɳiMagɘ (AlwaysMiniMage)

@MiniMage; +100; Yes. Religion itself, no matter which one, can bring out such extremists. When will the human race get intelligent enough to get over this age? I think it will take some thousand years more. - Ryo