“Just another reminder that tomorrow (Saturday) November 15th is the nationwide protest against Prop 8. Check here to find what's happening in your area: http://www.jointheimpact.com”
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November 14 at 6:43 pm
- Link
leigh himel, Hao Chen, Christopher Harley and 26 other people liked this
Be the change you want to see in the world. - Mattie Kenny
I'm going to the Atlanta event at 1:30 and then maybe to the 5:00 event. - Russellreno
Yay! I'm happy to hear that, Russel. I'm hitting up the Detroit event and then possibly high tailing it to the Lansing event. - Mattie Kenny
Prop 8 won, it's what the MAJORITY of California votes wanted. Why keep fighting? You can still make your own choice of partners. Stop wasting taxpayers dollars to keep fighting the obvious. - David Ward
No one's using tax payer's dollars for anything and no, the MAJORITY of California voters didn't want it. Furthermore, this isn't an issue of what people "want". This is about equality of rights. You may as well say that the entire Civil Rights movement should have stopped when Jim Crow laws were created. The inequity in those cases aren't quite the same as in this one, but the logic is the same. Fighting the obvious? What does that even mean? Absolutely nothing. - Mattie Kenny
ohh, david ward. come on. that's kind of a sad thing to say. it really is. :( - edythe
what do you mean the majority of voters didn't want it, It passed didn't it? WTF were the rest of the voters doing if they didn't vote? If you don't vote you have no right to complain about the issue. - David Ward
It passed with a 4% lead. That does not make a MAJORITY. - Mattie Kenny
Discrimination is still discrimination even if it is sanctified by the tyranny of the masses. In fact, ESPECIALLY if it is sanctified by the tyranny of the masses. - Jeff Jones
Indeed, Jeff. - Mattie Kenny
No it passed 52% vs 48%. That is a majority. But democracy is not about "majority rules." It's about liberty. And Proposition 8 clearly infringes on liberty. - Victor Ganata
Yea, that's 4%...to me a majority is 60% or more. I swear I said 4%. - Mattie Kenny
Majority means greater than 50%. - Victor Ganata
A majority of those who voted in this case. - Brian Sullivan
Not in all instances it doesn't and in my book more than half is not a majority either. - Mattie Kenny
Not sure what book you are looking at but perhaps a dictionary would be the appropriate book in this case. - Brian Sullivan
Greater than 50% is more specifically a "simple majority." Yes, there are certain things that need a higher percentage, but unfortunately, this wasn't one of them. - Victor Ganata
A 2/3 majority is necessary in the Senate and House to pass an Amendment to the US Constitution. Seriously, you don't have to be a jerk and I WILL delete your comments if you become one. - Mattie Kenny
To me, a majority is 60% or 2/3...which is really 66%, but still. - Mattie Kenny
It's unfortunate that so many are harmed by this outcome yet I trust that if the voting had gone the other way, very few on the winning side would declare anything less than total and complete victory. And with that the losing side be damned. - Christopher Harley
Victor - You're right. I'm aware that only a simple majority was necessary in this case. It's sad but true. I also think that rights should not be legislated away just because someone's religion doesn't like it. - Mattie Kenny
Arguing about majorities is beside the point, though. Just because a majority wants something doesn't mean it should happen, particularly if what they want infringes on other people's rights. That's what democracy is about, protecting people's rights. - Victor Ganata
Unfortunately, these things take time to work out, but this will get overturned, in the courts if not in the legislature. No one has a right to infringe on the basic liberties of others. - Logical Extremes
Christopher - If someone wanted to contest it because of a simple majority win, more power to them. It comes down to the simple fact that discrimination is discrimination is discrimination no matter who is supporting it. Creating second class citizens is NOT acceptable. - Mattie Kenny
Victor - Hear hear! - Mattie Kenny
Prop 8 is not infringing on anyone's civil liberties. Same sex marriage, in the legal sense, goes against our countries foundation. Same sex couples already have more rights than non married hetro couples do, isn't that enough? You can get married in your own ceremony, who cares if it's not recognized by the church or state? Why does that matter? It seems that all gays want to do is push their beliefs on everyone else and that infringes on me and my family. - David Ward
enough about what is and isn't a majority. In this case, more people voted for it than against it so that is a majority. - David Ward
How do they have more rights than hetero couples? That is blatantly NOT true. In the legal sense, a marriage is a contract entered into by two individuals and it should not matter their gender. That contract gives the two acting member certain rights that no other contract gives. These are the rights gays are asking for. Furthermore, by making sure that the contract is still called a marriage contract, they are protecting their adoption rights as well. I could care less if a religion recognizes a - Mattie Kenny
same sex marriage (and I think most gays also feel this way). What same sex marriage is about is getting the same rights that hetero couples regularly receive without a passing glance. - Mattie Kenny
David, would you care to explain "Same sex marriage, in the legal sense, goes against our countries foundation."? I really don't understand that. - Logical Extremes
one example of a right that same sex couples have is healthcare. If one has a medical plan, your domestic partner can be added on to the policy. If an unmarried couple had the same insurance, the domestic hetero partner could not be added unless they were married. This is discrimination. - David Ward
I might go to the one in Buffalo, since it's in walking distance from where I live. It depends on the weather and how I'm feeling. What gets me are those individuals who say if they legalize same sex marriage then they will want to legalize a marriage of a human and an animal. *rolls eyes* I'm not kidding, I've heard this before. - Molly, the Merry Maker
Yes, and more folks voted against interracial marriage, and for separate but equal. That does not make them right. With interracial marriage and other Jim Crow laws, these were voted on in the Senate and House. With separate but equal, it was the Supreme Court who voted. Discrimination is still discrimination whether it's legal or not. - Mattie Kenny
David, also... "It seems that all gays want to do is push their beliefs on everyone else" - I think it's really happening the other way around. Your church doesn't have to recognize or perform gay marriages. This is basic issue of Constitutional liberties that all citizens deserve, regardless of any personal characteristics. - Logical Extremes
David - homosexual domestic partners only have that right BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET MARRIED. - Mattie Kenny
Molly- I'm glad to hear that! I understand the weather can really inhibit your drive, but try to remember that this is important to a lot of people (and hopefully to you). I know it's pretty abstract a notion, but sometimes it helps me get the drive I need to do things even when it's cold and I feel blah. A cup of coffee and some jolly ranchers can do WONDERS out in the cold. :) - Mattie Kenny
Liberals are what's wrong with the USA. There's no morals left but yet liberals want to blame conservatives for all of the problems. Funny..not. - David Ward
As a nation of voters, emotionally hamstrung by social mores, we consistently push for the right to administer negative sanctions to enforce normative behavior. That quality would remain constant regardless of how one voted on this matter. - Christopher Harley
And now you're getting blocked, David. You took what was an actual conversation and turned it into nonsense. You saw yourself without an actual argument and instead resorted to ad hominem attacks and straw men. Had you not made that last comment, you would still be in this conversation. - Mattie Kenny
David, I'm not hearing rational arguments, only name-calling. What, exactly, are the founding principles that you refer to that validate discrimination? by the way, I'm not a "liberal" (what does that even mean anymore?), I'm a fiscally conservative, libertarian-leaning social progressive. - Logical Extremes
"All democracies are systems in which citizens freely make political decisions by majority rule. But rule by the majority is not necessarily democratic: No one, for example, would call a system fair or just that permitted 51 percent of the population to oppress the remaining 49 percent in the name of the majority. In a democratic society, majority rule must be coupled with guarantees of individual human rights that, in turn, serve to protect the rights of minorities" (usinfo.state.gov). - Jack Carlson
Wow Jack. Thank you. That more or less is what the argument in this thread is over. I love you. Omg. I'm in love with you, Jack. Marry me? Please? - Mattie Kenny
Jack, well put. - Christopher Harley
I fought in a war to defend this country from those who think "might makes right". Now elements within our own country are restricting the rights of citizens for no better reason their particular god doesn't like gay people. Too bad. Your god isn't a part of our government. With more enlightenment, Blacks who voted for 8 will eventually understand the parallels between our situations and vote for equal rights for all. - Jack Carlson
Indeed. I think there are some distinct differences in the Civil Rights movement and the Gay Rights movement, but the similarities between our struggle and the struggle blacks endured during the Civil Rights movement are too obvious to be ignored for too long. - Mattie Kenny
hence Jack, et al the Bill of Rights, which is the grounds to challenge Prop 8 and win - sofarsoshawn
Indeed. I'm glad there are efforts being made to challenge Prop 8. What really needs to happen is that the gay rights movement has to really centralize itself as the Civil Rights movement did. Although the situations are somewhat different, I think it would still be a good idea to model the gay right movement more closely after the Civil Rights movement with a very social media approach attached to it. - Mattie Kenny
I know this pushes the discussion outward but I'll add it anyway. Let's not forget that there is a small minority out there, a minority whom we seldom consider worth our attention, that would benefit from a reordering of marriage rights; polygamists. Perhaps we can learn to accept the rights of those who consciously choose this lifestyle for themselves without first demonizing their choices or assuming that we understand their motives. Consenting adults should be allowed to choose their destinies and enjoy recognition both from the state and from their fellow Americans. - Christopher Harley
I am fine with polygamy when it is with consenting adults. Unfortunately, most polygamists have child/teen brides etc., or at the very least this is all you hear about. - Mattie Kenny
I, too, am fine with polygamy when it is with consenting adults. Unfortunately, I, unlike yourself, am not able to determine if most polygamists have child/teen brides [EDIT-or grooms for that matter]. - Christopher Harley
In most polygamist communities, the men are the ones who have multiple brides, not the women with multiple grooms. I never said I was able to to determine this. I'm only saying this from the information I've gathered thus far. Hence why I say "or at the very least, this is all you hear about" because I am not an authority and am not placing myself as such. - Mattie Kenny
I know a number of polyamorists who are, and whose partners are, all consenting adults. (Some are men with more than one partner, some are women with more than one partner.) It would be downright straight-forward to legalise polygamy without making it legal for a child/teen/goat to be drawn into the arrangement. - Deborah Fitchett
James Madison figured this all out 200 years ago. The purpose of democracy is to prevent the tyranny of the majority. We are seeing that tyranny now. Hopefully democracy will be strong enough to overcome it. Anyone who thinks this nation was founded on majority rule failed Civics 101. - Victor Ganata
Oh, I was referring to polygamy rather than polyamory. I consider them two very different things as do most people in the polyamory/polygamist communities. I am polyamorous myself and live that lifestyle. Polygamy is much different in my eyes than polyamory. - Mattie Kenny
To David: It sounds that you are a very ignorant because of that ignorant liberal comment you made. I could easily say Conservatives are the most bigoted people and they have ruined the USA because of it. I'm sorry, David, but you really need to get some education about things. I so despise ignorant people like you. *rolls eyes* Oh and I will try to go to the protest. It's just a 15 minute walk for me to get there. - Molly, the Merry Maker
YAY MOLLY! :-) - Mattie Kenny
What's the difference you see between polygamy and polyamory? Other than that polygamy is presently illegal in our parts of the world. Certainly there's a history of it being practised in an exploitative way, but then the same is true of monogamy. - Deborah Fitchett
